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Post by Graius on Aug 17, 2006 16:40:24 GMT -6
I asked several times, but I also trust Edgard to be true on his word. Whilst it would be a possibly acceptable response to be angry at him for this apparent failure, I for one am willing to accept Edgard's explanation and apology and move on. The mature and statesmanlike claim that "no one gave a dam [sic] enough to include us in this shit" is one that can easily be refuted by any looks in the archives of the GSO negotiations, of which I provided a few select quotes from a specific thread, and in so doing having to violate in some ways the position of trust the Board has been afforded in the name of setting the record straight. That you are apparently unwilling to be forgiving of a human error is something of a mystery to me, but certainly does not do you any favours (and I in no way intend that to be taken as a threat). I find it particularly hurtful considering the line that I personally have unilaterally taken towards Natopia in its foreign policy, including assisting with the Treaty of BBC, helping defuse the Lovely-Natopia-Sullifree incident, and putting up with a lot of abuse from Lovelyite diplomats in the process, as well as recently demanding that the previously mentioned Kingdom send an ambassador to Natopia. Furthermore, it was not an "Edgard take care of it" matter so much as Edgard requesting that he be allowed to bring Natopia on board, and me granting him official permission to do so. And if you want to know the truth, I did have personal reservations about Natopia, as I did with several other nations, about how they would respond to an invite to the GSO. Despite this, the membership wanted Natopia on board, and I kept my reservations to myself, since the GSO is about service, not personalities. Your current response, which can only be described as selfish and petulant, says little in your favour. If you want to stay with the MCS, then by all means do so; we in the GSO will concentrate on looking after our own members, rather than winning over immature ingrates.
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Post by Maximos Qutreh Bar Idwharioun on Aug 17, 2006 17:07:45 GMT -6
Well put, Ben. But I must point out that if the GSO truly wanted to be called democratic it would have told MCS members. Every MCS member had a right to know that most of their neighbours would just disappear, or that their membership in the society could have been threatened due to its impending collapse. You may not have intended to destroy the MCS, but by starting the GSO with certain nations it shows a lot about who you would favour. I take it that every GSO member would have a vote and that once you're in, it'd be democratic, and that's admirable. But other nations, Matbaa included, had a right to know. And I for one was pissed off when I found out that the whole thing had been concieved ages ago without many nations even knowing of it. I don't have a problem with what it is now, but I do have one with how you started it. Personally, I reckon that Natopia's being left out of the GSO, even if it was by mistake, is actually a good thing. They now know what it's like to be left out of something and not be allowed to help build something which could have affected them. I know you and others may have had some problems with Ryan, but the whole creation of the GSO would have been fairer had it been out in the open, for all to discuss, not just some. To have this whole new mapping society simply descend on some nations instantly whilst others have had months to prepare is simply, to be blunt, not fair. I wish you luck in your endeavour, Ben, and hope that the MCS and GSO nations can remain friends.
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Post by Nathan on Aug 17, 2006 17:14:16 GMT -6
I have spoken with Ed personally and forgiven him and I told him my problems were not with him. I know Ed requested to tell us and we have discussed this all.
Nor are my problems with the GSO, perhaps I've not made that clear. Our problems are with the Novasolan nations who are our allies, who did not ensure we were involved in this matter.
Nor are my problems with you... except for just now when you called us all immature ingrates.
So far, our current response as been directed at Novasolum... we have only become enraged children when people come here and tell us how we should act and think and behave and how we should really just shut up because we're not really worth anything to Novasolum and have no right to complain when they ditch us. We deserve everything we get.
We don't care about the GSO... the very first post in this thread was basically "oh no... our novasolan allies left us for a new map... well screw them, we're staying on the MCS."
I don't know how, but you shouldn't take this personally either... whatever it is we're doing to you.
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Post by FCM on Aug 17, 2006 23:09:09 GMT -6
hey ben gray, wat part of london u from? maybe we could meet up an see what happens wen u call a proud natopian an immature ingrate in person
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Post by Graius on Aug 18, 2006 5:12:09 GMT -6
And what? You'll beat me up? How mature.
As President of the GSO it is my duty to defend the conduct of the organisation, particularly in relation to the bogus claim that Natopia was "forgotten" by its Novasolum partners. I stand by my claim that Natopia's response has been immature since, despite all the evidence to the contrary, and yes, there were several times when Novasolan nations questioned the status of Natopia in relation to GSO membership, you wish to persist in claiming that you were the wronged party, and conveniently ignoring all evidence that doesn't fit into the weltanschauung of grievance. It's easy to play the wronged party, harder to forgive and accept that there was a genuine error. The response is also, in my opinion, ungrateful since I do not subscribe to the view that anyone had a "right" to be notified about the GSO during the planning phase. It started as a joint venture between the GC, Treithar, Gotzborg, Lemuria and Anthelia, and it had not been intended to expand beyond that, since, as all who have defended the MCS (myself included) know, the rival organisations have all been criticised as being inadequate on the grounds of a lack of preparation, either through ripping off MCS style or having no understanding of geography. Thus our hand was forced. Don't be disingenuous, and actually think what the response would have been had we done everything in the open. We'd have been beset on all sides as "traitors", "backstabbers", "incompetent", having an incomplete map and so on. We had to plan in secret in order to allow the map to be of a sufficient quality not to be abused like all previous competitors. Saying that people ought to be informed in the name of the democracy of the organisation is the equivalent of saying that a member of the French Resistance ought to inform all his neighbours about his dream of a democratic France indiscriminately. Furthermore, the GSO was entirely a joint-venture. I did not start as its president, nor did I suggest the idea of the organisation. I didn't even nominate myself for election to the board or the presidency, but was nominated and elected to both positions by members of the organisation. The nations that subsequently joined did so either because they discovered our existence (e.g. New Brittannia), or because of a desire for stability, as was the case with the Novasolan group, which wanted both Alexandria _and_ Natopia on the map. I immediately contacted Edgard (he being the first of the two to come online, and who I have a working relationship with), who then proceeded to ask to invite you in person. Novasolum was pleased with this, as was I, since I have little in the way of any knowledge of Natopia or its affairs or possible response to an invitation. They did not "abandon" you, and yet, as we still see here, you persist to claim it, because it's so much easier to play the injured party and gain the sympathy vote. Politic? Possibly. Easy? Yes. Mature? No. Gracious? No. Un-statesmanlike? Definately.
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Post by FCM on Aug 18, 2006 6:47:58 GMT -6
did i say id kick seven shades of shit outta u? i was thinkin more along the lines of u grovelling an beggin for forgiveness
oh and u cant compare a fight for freedom against fascism with settin up a poxy imaginary map
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Post by Graius on Aug 18, 2006 7:40:50 GMT -6
Thank you for your well-spelt, measured and wholly mature response.
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Post by Nathan on Aug 18, 2006 10:27:53 GMT -6
We don't want any sympathy. We are leaving the Novasolum treaty with a bit of style as this was simply the "final straw." I'm done discussing this anyway. We think we're right. You think we're immature. This shall always be the case.
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Post by Tasneem on Aug 18, 2006 11:05:34 GMT -6
Now now, I do not appreciate being called immature, and as you'll notice, you couldn't quite pinpoint a single thing I said on this matter that was immature. I'm a part of Natopia, too, and a mass personal attack of calling everyone immature is immature in itself.
What's our problem? Hey, well, mine is that we STILL haven't gotten a formal invitation. I'm not saying that we'll accept it or anything, but once again, it's all talk about Natopia and no action. There's a difference, you see, it's the action that matters in the end. It just seems as if someone should have rechecked to see that all the pieces were in place before the new map came out. I think it's the duty of the GSO to make sure it covered all bases but that's just me.
I don't have a problem with Edgard because as far as I know, he's still my Spanish-speaking hero. Hey he forgot, that's totally fine. You should ask either one of us how many times that we forgot we had But we're mainly concerned with how no one remembered us in the follow up. Yes, we see that people thought about including us, but it never went any further than that. It just seems to gauge how important we are to the other nations. Natopia seems to just have been a passing thought. We have every right to feel hurt that no one felt that it was important to follow up on us. It's not immature.
What are we doing now? The Novasolum Treaty was made with our neighbors. It seems to me that we do not have these neighbors any more. It seems to us as a simple matter of logic here. We wish everyone well on their new map. How is that not gracious? Sure, some of my fellow Natopians have not expressed their views calmly, but Natopia as a whole does not issue statements saying we hate and will never talk to any one that left us out.
As for being un-statesmenlike, I never understood how choosing our own path and what we find good for our nation would fall under that. If circumstances were different, we might all have different opinions on this matter, but as it is, we're sticking with our decision. Natopians are extremely patriotic so blanket generalizations about us are not easily taken.
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Post by FCM on Aug 18, 2006 11:15:23 GMT -6
so graius wat makes u so mature? coming into our nation whining and bitching an callin us ingrates?
wat the fuck have u done thats so great?
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Post by Graius on Aug 18, 2006 18:17:13 GMT -6
More than you. I also aimed my comment at those who were behaving in an immature and ungracious manner. Tasneem, I respect you and did not aim my comment at you.
If you want a formal invitation, here it is:
Dear Sirs,
The Geographical Standards Organisation would like to formally extend an invitation to the Sovereign Natopian Empire to possess membership as an established nation, and has set aside land on the Novasolan continent especially for the Empire. Your application will be fast-tracked, and no more will be said about this sordid affair. If you wish to accept this invitation, please do so in the Geographic Standards Organisation forum, which may be located on the Micronations.net forum.
Yours faithfully,
Benjamin Gray, President, Geographical Standards Organisation
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Post by Nathan on Aug 18, 2006 18:25:46 GMT -6
Thank you for the invitation Mr. Gray, but Natopia will not be pursueing membership with the GSO at this time. We wish the Organization the best of luck in its future and must reiterate that the Empire's recent policies and actions were not intended to offend the GSO itself.
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Post by Tasneem on Aug 18, 2006 20:56:45 GMT -6
Hey now! I still wasn't invited! "Dear sirs"... what about me? I'm not a sir (and proud of it). I tell you, you micronations boys just don't have any respect for us girls. We exist, too! They call me a duchess instead of a duke for a reason, you know.
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Post by FCM on Aug 18, 2006 21:04:15 GMT -6
more than me eh? u seem very sure of urself considering u know nothing about me
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Post by Nathan on Aug 18, 2006 21:09:01 GMT -6
i think ill just step aside for this one...
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