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Post by Tasneem on Nov 25, 2005 19:03:44 GMT -6
neem got a B I know! Isn't it shameful!
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Post by Nathan on Nov 26, 2005 0:40:09 GMT -6
Shun!! -_-
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Post by Tasneem on Nov 26, 2005 16:07:50 GMT -6
*cries*
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Post by Carson Smith on Nov 26, 2005 17:31:07 GMT -6
Nate, That is interesting about the Royal Decree re: first person plural. It is only fair that I follow Natopian customs when I am in Natopia, and therefore I shall abstain from use of the first person plural. *** Neem, I was the same way about my first B+, especially since it really should have been an A-! If that B+ keeps me out of the Ivy League schools...then I blame my school! *** Rob, good point about Ronen asking U.A.I. for advice!! While realistically I probably wouldn't ask U.A.I. for advice if I was in competition with them, my consulting services have no place in Ronen because of my role as monarch there; a monarch cannot be flitting around dabbling in the economy as they wish. I may start some sort of company which I just own at some point, but it wouldn't be appropriate for me to have a consulting company and also be monarch. In any event, U.A.I.'s services are second to none and I look forward to having the opportunity to retain your services at some point in one of my micronations. You, like so many other Americans, seem to have misguided beliefs about monarchs and monarchies. I emphasize that monarchy is NOT dictatorship. I have made this point over and over with Natopians in the past. True, I can't dispute the fact that monarchs have married cousins, although usually not first cousins (which would cause the risk of birth defects), but that is one tradition that if and when I choose to marry I will not follow, and I think that there are some macronational monarchs who have broke with tradition in that regard. However, rest assured that I have no intention of killing millions of own people (for reasons other than the fact that realistically I would be looking at a macronational death penalty and that I don't have millions of subjects)! The poor will not be oppressed in Ronen. Not only that, the Ronenian constitution forbids the establishment of a state religion as well as war that is not completely necessary in self-defense. You are not one to talk about warmongering, working for the M.C.S. and being involved in a nation that recwars. Additionally, if monarchs are so evil, why were you at one point a citizen of a monarchy (Gotzborg) and why do you continue to participate there today? One other thing I must emphasize is that Ronen is NOT a game as you have referred to it being! At this point, there are not serious secessionist attitudes, but at the same time we do not pursue things such as simulated economies, sports, or maps, at least not when they are endorsed by the government. Yes, Ronen's activity is almost completely online. Yes, we participate in many traditional intermicronational events. No, we are not a simulation. As a subject of King Alexander, I will say that even though he may be taken as a joke among the simulationist community (which I have seen no evidence of to date), he is admired and respected among his subjects, and Hanover is a very active nation with over twenty citizens. I'm not sure how following macronational customs means that I do not take myself seriously? Do not even start the Gotzborg-Hanover rivalry crap. I'm not sure why, but it seems that every time you involve yourself in a discussion I start or have some role in, it is to criticize me and make subtle personal attacks. I don't accept any of the Natopians to sympathize with me, because they never have appreciated or respected me in the manner they do you, but it really agrevates me that the micronational community holds you in such high esteem while you harbor these prejudices against me and certain other people who I have talked to.
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Post by Carson Smith on Nov 26, 2005 17:36:41 GMT -6
Weeeeelllll, on the We vs. I matter, I did a little research, and macronational monarchs do not seem to be using We save for in official documents. I think that I will use first person singular from now on (except in legal documents), but nonetheless I do not appreciate Rob's comments.
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Post by MasterRDavis on Nov 26, 2005 21:13:39 GMT -6
Well. First off, I never said that Monarchies were dictatorships; please refrain from mis-quoting me. I merely pointed out that the excuse of "it's tradition" is a little weak, considering that Monarchies have plenty of negative traditions, as well.
Alexander of Hanover certainly is seen as a joke by many people. I can count six Heads of State off the top of my head who feel that way, and have expressed such to me during conversations. But that aside...
I dont make subtle personal attacks. I prefer to air out any disagreements in the open if I have a problem with someone. Just because I dont agree with someone doesnt mean that I dont like them, or am somehow attacking them. I have arguments all the time with my wife, doesnt mean we're about to divorce or have any sort of falling out. Mature people can argue and disagree without making it personal.
Also - I really dont give a poo about the Gotzborg-Hanover thing...I am no longer active in Gotz, nor am I a citizen. They can defend themselves or carry on whatever argument they have with Hanover without my assistance.
Last: you need to learn how to interpret someone's vernacular before going off on a rant. When I said "at this stage in the game" - I did NOT mean that as "Ronen is a game". You should have at least clarified before assuming. I've never had a problem with you, and dont see a reason for your feeling of alienation. It your only "proof" is that I dont go on a hugfest with you each time we run into each other, that's a rather weak argument to make.
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Post by Brian Capelle on Nov 26, 2005 21:18:32 GMT -6
"While realistically I probably wouldn't ask U.A.I. for advice if I was in competition with them, my consulting services have no place in Ronen because of my role as monarch there; a monarch cannot be flitting around dabbling in the economy as they wish"
Micronations Now... Sullifree... erm...
why can a monarch not run a business in an economy? Especially when he servers the economic side of government from his own pocket? I see no real reason not. Now, if you decide that you can spend all government money as you wish, it would be pointless then to have a business, but I have made a distinct... distinction between my own pocket and the government's and thus, as a citizen just like any other, I run my business. Why can't I?
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Post by Carson Smith on Nov 27, 2005 6:44:32 GMT -6
Rob,
You may not have said flat out that monarchies are dictatorships, but that was the road you were going down. By making the comments about monarchs traditionally killing their own people and such, you implied that you believed monarchs were dictators. Perhaps I flew off the handle, but I've honestly had enough of Natopians and people associated with them holding with this idea that any monarchy is an autocratic state. Sure, monarchs have had negative traditions. I won't follow those, but some of the good ones I will follow simply for tradition's sake.
As for Alexander of Hanover, maybe he is seen as a joke among other micronationalists. If other people really did tell you in private conversations that they feel that way, they probably do. However, aren't most Hanoverians seen that way, simply because they take nationhood seriously? I know that I've gotten my share of crap during my time in micronationalism because of some beliefs I hold that are common Hanoverian ideas. I recognize that there are some very strong anti-Hanover sentiments in the micronational world, and I have always, in Hanover, supported changing that. As Foreign Minister there, I embarked on a "world tour," visiting a number of micronations and dispelling the isolationist ideas about Hanover. Interesting to note that Gotzborg, where you were at the time a citizen, was the only nation that didn't respond to my post. I would also point out that one of those 8 heads of state you talk to is probably August Charles of Gotzborg, who for whatever reason has a chip on his shoulder about Alexander, Prince Christopher of Hanover, and Hanover.
In that post, you made the Alexander being a joke comment, and likened his use of the first person plural to mine, thereby implying that I am, or will be, seen as a joke. In your recent response, you again subtly attacked me personally by saying that "mature people can argue and disagree without making it personal." Obviously, your idea is that I've made it personal, so therefore you are saying that I am immature. I get that so much in micronationalism it's laughable. Most people say that I am a very mature person and my English skills are excellent, and so on. Then, when they're in an argument with me and they have nothing to say back, they just say I'm immature. It's easy to do, and even though it has no logical backing, you think it's a good argument because it gets personal. You know what? I used to get angry when people did that but now I don't because I know I'm not the immature one. From now on, I am simply going to ignore the offender and revoke citizenships in the nation where it happens if that's necessary. I will finish this debate with you, but I'm not even going to try and engage in conversation with you again. Also, I have heard from a few other people that they have I.M.ed you when you were clearly online and you simply did not respond, even after almost half an hour. That to me is a subtle attack.
Well, whether you meant to say that Ronen is a game or not, that's how it came across, and I don't appreciate it. I don't expect you to go on a hugfest with me every time you see me, but you post on a lot of the same forums as I do, and you've never once posted in a thread I start simply to join in the conversation or make a comment of agreement; it's always to rebutt what I say, and it always turns into a huge argument. Additionally, part of my feeling of alienation, as you put it, is the way I have been treated by Natopians recently. I still haven't forgiven them for some things that happened in Lavalon, and it frustrates me how they really do go on a hugfest with you and so many other people but I never have gotten half the respect from them that you do, even though I have made plenty of contributions to projects they were involved in.
Brian, Sullifree seems to me like a more liberal type of monarchy, so maybe it is OK for you to have Micronations Now, but in a conservative monarchy like Ronen, it's not appropriate.
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Post by MasterRDavis on Nov 27, 2005 7:24:12 GMT -6
Wow - you are the first person I've met to take EVERYTHING someone says so literally.
Someone who knows what I meant more than I do!! Dude, you could have saved me so much time by just telling me about this gift months ago.
I actually like Hanover - got no problem with them. I might not care for their King, but I dont have to like him cause I'm not Hanoverian. But yeah, it's a neat place and it's certainly successful. So kudos to them for that. Also - I said SIX Heads of State, not 8, you really need to pay more attention. Also - the thing that the King of Gotz has against Alexander, I believe (and you can ask him to clarify since I cant really speak for him), is that they worked long and hard on a Treaty, only to have it not succeed because Alexander didnt trust August. I could be wrong, and dont claim to be certain about that - but I'm pretty sure that's why. Like I said - if you really want to know, ask in Gotzborg.
And you are right (finally) about something. I was implying that if you went around the Sector using the Imperial "We" in all your conversation, it's likely that a lot of people would laugh at you for it. It's just a matter of what folks are used to; and that's not something more people are used to hearing.
I was talking about me and my wife. Unless there's something you're not telling me, that isnt you. It was an example to show that two thinking people are able to argue without lodging attacks. But on the same hand, sometimes being a bastard is fun, so I guess you see that a lot.
1) You are making it personal, by getting offended by shit I didnt even say, but you assumed I meant. 2) I never called you immature, and I didnt even imply it. If I had said "human beings know how to argue" - would you have taken offense and gone off about how I think you're a monkey??
Do you wonder why that is? Millions of Elvis fans cant be wrong, I suppose...but then, cant they?
I am honestly happy to hear that.
I retract my previous statement...and you should retract yours...this sounds a little contradictory. "I'm not immature I'll just kick people out if they disagree with me."
Oh my...you are truly pathetic. (yes that was personal...so NOW your claim is accurate) Do you think...maybe just THINK (try hard, dont hurt yourself) that it's possible I had an explorer window open to an EZboard somewhere but wasnt at the computer? I actually have a life and responsibilities outside the hobby; as do most people. Anyone who knows me knows that it's not uncommon for me to have a board up on my screen but I'm away from the computer - even sometimes all day. So just because I dont reply right away doesnt mean I am attacking someone. Also - Ezboard is notorious for eating personal messages. I've sent notes that never reached their destination.
Is this was on AIM, it's possible I wasnt there. I dont have it set up to show me as away after so many minutes, etc. And it used to be on all damn day, so it's possible I was not around a bunch of times. Now, when I want to ignore someone, I use the invisibility feature. And if I didnt want to talk to someone at all, they wouldn't be able to see me online even because only those on my list can see me, and obviously I am only going to add people I want to talk to.
Awww...is that a promise? I guess we'll see if you really are mature enough to keep your word there and not reply.
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Post by Carson Smith on Nov 27, 2005 8:00:06 GMT -6
(I said that I'll finish this discussion, so I'm not contradicting myself.)
On the Hanover-Gotzborg matter, August Charles's interpretation may be that Alexander stopped the treaty because he didn't trust August Charles, but I think the situation was more about Pendronia being annexed by Gotzborg after the Pendronians backed out of a merger with Hanover. The Hanoverians felt alienated because their merger would have been completely equal; neither nation was annexing the other, whereas the Gotzborg merger completely integrated Pendronia into Gotzborg. Of course the Gotzborgers argued that this merger, even if technically an annexation, was in the best interests of the Pendronians. (I might note that the Pendronian culture is pretty much dead at this point, and little distinction exists between Pendronia and Gotzborg.)
We is not tied to Emperors. It is used by Kings, Princes, Grand Dukes, etc. as well. Most micronationalists are not used to hearing We instead of I because most of them do not consort with macronational monarchs!
When you used you and your wife being mature in arguments as an example, you had to be using it as an example of something. Also, yet again you leveled a subtle personal attack.
You have to be careful when you make a post about the nerves you're going to hit and what people are going to infer from it! Even though you didn't mean some of those things, that's how I understood what you said and clearly, the harm has been done.
You've totally missed the point on me saying that I'm not immature but I just kick people out being contradictory. First off, I never said that I'm kicking anyone out of anywhere, even if only because I don't have the power to do that in Natopia. Second, I am choosing not to engage with people who I consider immature because they can't come up with any better argument than me being immature.
I have a life outside of micronationalism too, thank you very much (although a lot of people seem to expect that I don't), and the incident to which I am referring took place on AIM. I can't recall the exact circumstances, but I'll see if I can find a transcript of the I.M. conversation when I heard about this.
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Post by MasterRDavis on Nov 27, 2005 9:28:29 GMT -6
I guess that would make sense...a bit before my time, I think. Dont worry about the IM conversation - it doesnt really matter. If someone has a problem with my habits on AIM, they can talk to me about it. Otherwise, it's nothing more than heresay. Unless I am horribly mistaken, I was absolutely polite to you in the reply to your email about Consultation...even wished you well. I guess that wouldnt get brought up cause it goes against the bad guy image you want to paint of me.
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Post by Carson Smith on Nov 27, 2005 9:37:20 GMT -6
I will talk to the person who had the problem with you on AIM and tell them that you said that. You were quite polite and professional in your reply about consultation, and to be honest you've been quite polite throughout this whole debate. I'm sorry if I have offended you and I suppose I can find it in my heart to forgive you. Do know that I still would consider U.A.I. for Ronenian consultation assistance if there was ever a vacancy. I'm not out to paint a bad guy image of you, but yes, I was a bit angry about some things you said to me and to be honest I'm a bit cross with some other Natopians right now so I may have taken that out on you.
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Post by MasterRDavis on Nov 27, 2005 12:55:29 GMT -6
That's cool - I can totally understand and accept that, mate. Sometimes tensions run high for underlying reasons and eveyrone ends up getting upset over things that might not normally upset them. No harm done. Like I said in the email, we're more than happy to lend a hand on a short-term basis if you need help. It's just that long-term consultation is out at the moment due to the heavy workload I already have. But since you've asked, Ronen sits atop the list. We'll be sure to holler at you when the time comes.
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Post by Nathan on Nov 27, 2005 13:29:47 GMT -6
...is... everything better now?
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Post by Carson Smith on Nov 27, 2005 14:23:36 GMT -6
Yes, Nate, for the most part things are better, but there is still the matter brought up in Z's thread about Lavalonian-Natopian relations in your Foreign Ministry forum. Also, Rob, do keep me posted about U.A.I. I understand that your workload is quite heavy right now.
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