Resolution to Denounce Holzer Empire

[Nathan]

Be it resolved by the Royal Frenzy of the Sovereign Natopian Empire:

The actions, as reported to the Empire by its eternal ally the Zatriarchate of Matbaa, of the Holzer Empire are unbecoming of a state deserving any attention of the Empire,

The Holzer Empire has authorized what amounts to a genocide against Matbaic Orthodox Christians within the Holzer Empire's territory,

Therefore, in the spirit of friendship and solidarity and in strict opposition to the act of genocide, this Royal Frenzy resolves to

1. Disengage any diplomatic contact with the Holzer Empire and refrain from engaging in contact with the Holzer Empire until the Zatriarchate of Matbaa has reported a cease in actions against Matbaic Christians,

2. Encourage the Empire's other allies to disengage diplomatic contact with the Holzer Empire,

3. Cooperate with any Non-Aligned Movement actions taken to contain and prevent the situation from arising again,

Resolved this Fifteenth Day of the Month of Reguary by the assembled Members of the Royal Frenzy



Debate. Matbaa has told the other NAM members that Holzborg has begun simulated genocide against Matbaics living in Holzborg. even though its just simulated, genocide should not be tolerated and any micronation advocating it should be punished. its unlikely they will agree to a recwar since they've already been soundly beaten by half the micronational community in a war just concluded on friday. this is the only option available.

[Brian Capelle]

I'm not sure whether this is real or not... you know what I mean... ehh?

[FCM]

ive never even heard of the holzer empire but causing trouble with our allies is as good as causing trouble with us.

[Nathan]

its not real in the sense that its not real genocide... its simulated genocide...

im not too familiar with the holzer empire myself, but yes... Matbaa is a fellow NAM nation and an attack against them is an attack against us all.

[mz]

i have never heard of any of these people : P

what are they doing?

[chrimigules]

If I may... I had been trying to judge the recwar that all of this has stemmed from.

Matbaa attacked Holzborg, occupied part of it, then threatened that they wouldn't leave after the war was over. The Kaiser of Holzborg, during the concessions discussion, said that he'd be willing for his population to join the Matbaic Orthodox Church, and to officially give Matbaa a small part of their territory. The Zatriarch then threatened that the people would rise up against him and join Matbaa anyway, so he should just give Matbaa all the territory that they want now.

The Kaiser of Holzborg isn't the greatest person. He's compared Landingberg and Alexandria to the Axis Powers of WWII, suggested that the Alexandrians were raping Holzer peasants... etc. I don't intend to ever get involved in anything concerning Holzborg ever again. I would, however, suggest that either Matbaa isn't innocent on this matter, or they are spinning this whole matter to make Holzborg look worse internationally (which isn't necessary... it looks bad as is).

[mz]

wow... that explains it...
I think we should clarify whether they are spinning it or it really is this bad before we do anything significant.

[Nathan]

Thanks for the insight Chris.

I ask that no one move this to a vote until the situation has been clarified.

[Brian Capelle]

If this is a serious issue, let's hear it. If this is simply us taking sides in a recwar, whatever. If someone is actually threatening Matbaa to cause the nation, the citizens or the property serious harm, then we should deal with it in a timely manner, but if either it is a fragment of a dumb recwar or some stupid micronationalist rambling then just shrug it off.

[Maximos Qutreh Bar Idwharioun]

and to officially give Matbaa a small part of their territory. The Zatriarch then threatened that the people would rise up against him and join Matbaa anyway, so he should just give Matbaa all the territory that they want now.

If I may just interrupt here...
We never actually said that, Chris. What I stated to the Kaiser was that, in purely simulationist terms, if Matbaic Orthodox Citizens converted by the Matbaic military when we invaded Holzborg were ever discriminated against by the Holzer Government, they'd probably either call on us for support or just rebel against the Holzer Government.
Holzborg did also offer to make the population Matbaic Orthodox, but not to give us any land.
I then explained to him that, as a theocracy, any state land is also church land, so his refusal to grant us land is an insult to the church and hence gives no incentive for the church to negociate with him. A perfectly valid point, I believe.

I would, however, suggest that either Matbaa isn't innocent on this matter, or they are spinning this whole matter to make Holzborg look worse internationally (which isn't necessary... it looks bad as is).

Regardless of whether you believe or not the presence of Matbaic Orthodox followers in Holzborg, their Kaiser still stated that he'd put all Matbaic Orthodox Citizens into Concentration Camps. This equates to simulated genocide.
Throwing aside the war for a moment, simulated genocide is, put quite simply, sick and depraved. I don't believe it should be a part of this hobby at all.

[Nathan]

Thank you Max.

@ Brian: The recwar has already been fought, Natopia did not participate. That recwar is over, and treaties either signed or currently being negotiated.

This current situation deals with Holzborg implying that it will put people into concentration camps. That is the extent of the Holzborg Kaiser's threats so far... as I have seen no evidence that such camps have actually been established.

[Maximos Qutreh Bar Idwharioun]

I've posted the screenshot in the NAM forum in Antica, Nate.
Only thing is that it doesn't matter whether the camps have actually been established or not, as I believe I've stated on numerous occasions. The guy is promoting simulated genocide. That's enough reason to denounce him.

[Nathan]

Simulated genocide doesn't bother me personally all that much, especially if he's just running his mouth off. Not much speech gets me offended, that little scandal about Alexandrians "raping little boys" seemed blown way out of proportion, with respect to my friend Edgard. But I can't get upset about mere talk.

I just had a thought though. Max, did you know Natopia was founded on the ideals of state-sanctioned mass execution of "undesireables." The most recent one was about a year ago, the unfortunate person was annoying one of our citizens in real life, so we executed him. Execution is still on the books too. We've toned it down a lot, but you can still find "Assimilation Camps" in the frontiers of Klaasiya, taking indigenous people, ex-patriots, and Secret Enemies and assimilating them into Natopian culture while destroying their old one. An atrocity for the cause of human rights, I'm well aware. But those camps are simulated as well, and "exist" more than the threats of the Holzer Kaiser. So therefore, you should also denounce Natopia for simulated human rights atrocities.

But our camps do not discriminate on creed or race, they are only for Natopian citizens and people who are newly under Natopian control in the Klaasiya territory.

[Maximos Qutreh Bar Idwharioun]

But our camps do not discriminate on creed or race, they are only for Natopian citizens and people who are newly under Natopian control in the Klaasiya territory.

Exactly. Matbaa does the same to rebels from indigenous tribes in Kefr Zeh Colony, and of course, all those who dare denounce the synod and true faith- which isn't at all surprising given that we're a theocracy.
But the problem lies in the fact that those that he is making 'camps' for are not an ethnic minority he's invented. It's an ethnic group I've put into micronationalism.
It's totally different to purvey genocide against Assyrians in micronationalism or a totally invented ethnic group. As micronational Assyrians, Matbaics equate a Matbaic Genocide on Micras to the Safyo, or Assyrian Holocaust, which actually did take place between 1915 and 1920.
I'm not trying to inflate this event more than it has been already, and if you guys disapprove of a war, then that's fine with me. But Natopia does not actually perform systematic destruction of an entire ethnic group micronationally, whereas Holzborg is.
I'm not saying that your activities in Klaasiya against the undesirables are not a breach of human rights, but their concept isn't as awful as genocide.

[Nathan]

Genocide is indeed the most heinous act a state can perpetrate. However, the other things that Natopia and Matbaa both do are abhorrent as well. If the Royal Frenzy denounces Holzborg we would be throwing stones, knowing full well we have sinned.

I personally (both as emperor and a real person) cannot condone us denouncing them while we do something only slightly less evil. And your state does similar things, and you do it when someone denounces your state religion, I find that just as bad as putting someone in a camp for their ethnicity.

I don't mean to debate morals here, but I'm just trying to establish a point: if we denounce Holzborg for this thing that they do, they can turn it right back at us, effectively nullifying any effect we may hope to achieve internationally by publicly denouncing their actions.